New Website Direction!

[General Phoenix]

From as early as I can remember, I've loved to tell stories. My parents still have an audio tape of me as a child, telling some long-winded story about a family of fishing rods and their adventures. (Don't even ask...)

I started writing stories in grade school - they were good for someone of my age, but not great. Nonetheless, I loved doing it, and I loved the recognition I got for my talent. Over the years, I've become better and better, either by reading a lot and absorbing the styles of others, or simply by practice, practice, and more practice. Then, a couple years ago, I combined my love of writing with my love of films when I wrote the pilot for a S/F series called Orion, based on an idea created by our own former head-cheese, Darrell Lawrence. Orion is still being shopped around to agents - who knows if anything will come of it. But it was the catalyst for an idea.

That idea was to be called Phoenix Studios, and it would be an online community dedicated to bringing writers, artists, and filmmakers together to bring stories to life in a way that none of them would be able to do alone. However, my own writing work, RealLife concerns, and the maintenance of 3DGladiators has long prevented me from giving this idea the attention it deserved.

I think we've all come to agree that 3DG needs a new sense of purpose - a focus to drive it toward something more than just another CGI discussion board. My first thoughts were to try and bulk up the galleries and the download center, but that's not what's keeping us from being successful. No matter how many pictures you have in your gallery, or how shiny and cool your website is, you have to have something unique that people come to see - there's just too many CGI boards out there that do what we're trying to do, and do it much better. So, after a lot of thinking and a couple relatively sleepless nights, I've decided to give the Phoenix Studios concept a try here, at 3DG.

The following is a link to the plan I drew up long ago for Phoenix Studios - a plan that was never instituted.

http://www.phoenixstudiosonline.com/newmission.doc

(MS Word 97 format, approx. 30K)

I've updated it somewhat, and there may still be some minor changes, but overall, this is how I intend to proceed. I want you all to know that I did come to this decision easily.

I'm not going to make any drastic changes to the forums or the site right away - I want to give us time to discuss this new plan and how best to execute it. I also welcome any thoughts you might have - after all, this will have an effect on all of us, to one degree or another.

That's all for now...

[moovok]

Moderators will also sometimes

Sometimes... what? Say Hello? :) hehe

Some of it sounds good, especially the Writer's Block area, but then I read the Terms & Agreements. If a writer, like myself, has writer's block, they go into this area, post a brief thing, where they're stuck at, and someone gives them an idea (out of the goodness of their hearts), does that mean the writer must have permission from that person to publish their book, or is it just on the Project's that it's a TEAM BUILDING EXERCISE, and that the Writer's Block area, etc. (outside the Project Forum) you don't need permission, its just people giving advice and comments to stuff.

If that's right, then that sounds rather good. Cause Projects are many people grouping together to create something, whereas in the other forums, its individuals asking for help, advice, inspiration. I hope you get what I mean.

But honestly, sounds like a good idea, but a LOT of work, and it might fall through. That's my thoughts.

[General Phoenix]

Right - if you're in the Projects area, then everything is sort of "Community Property." But on the open forums, if someone gives you advice or ideas, that's their decision, and if you use the idea, they can't gripe about it later. It's sort of like a modeller asking which of two designs he should start with - if he chooses based on someone else's opinion, he still owns the work himself.

[moovok]

Okay, so what do the Moderators will also sometimes....?

Your document doesn't end the sentenace, unless that's it. The Moderators WILL also sometimes. :) Sorry to be picky, but it might say "The Moderators will also sometimes dress up in women's clothing, posing for calendars which will be sold in the 3D Gladiators Store for a small price, which will not be given to the Moderators."

Then I'm sure me and Proximo will have to find some nice dresses and high heels :D

[Proximo]

Heh... heels for me fiancée perhaps. Black. Up to the thighs. Hmm...

It's not as bad as the disclaimer I've had on my fanfiction site for ages and not even noticed.

"Unauthorised redistribution and duplication of the above materials is."

Sort of existential isn't it... ;)

[General Phoenix]

Actually, that sentence needs to go away altogether - it should be fixed now.

[Sess]

http://www.geocities.com/stvoy_fan2/marina.html

well this is the story most people I know seem to like best... of mine that is.

I like conflict in my stories I suppose... and suck at everything else.

[Alex]

I'm currently writing and illustrating a story for uni, I'd be happy to scan and upload it all once I'm done.

[General Phoenix]

Great - I'm looking forward to it.

[ricktu]

Blimey.... over a week and only one serious comment on the possible new direction. Not a promising start.

Richard.

[Chris B]

I daresay, I agree.

My point of view is the following:

The current member base is only present here because they have grown used to 3dgladiators. there is no real connection between the members anymore.
is there anyone here who does not post at another forum?
as the common ground on which 3dg was based has faded away other places have gradually become more important. for me this other place is threedy.com, for many others it was agora, which has also fallen apart, i hear.

3dg's common ground used to be star trek, something i can hardly stand to see anymore. but that's only me. another common thing we had was the distrust we held for scifi-art. when scifi-art turned scifi-meshes for many members it didn't seem awkward anymore to go there again. star trek "art" is now created and viewed there, like it or not.
the only thing that holds us together now, is that we have grown used to be together.
for me personaly this realtionship has loosened, i wanna be so hones with you all. i frankly don't have the time and often not the interest to post here. the reason for the lack of interest is simply the lack of intriguing stuff to comment on. so much about me and common base.

the whole phoneix studios (PS) idea is not bad but lacks some essentials, i'll try to point them out here.

first of all, i'm sure there are members who enjoy writing. but how many - 5? There are more 3d-ers than writers here. Are those 3d-ers interested in illustrating stories they didn't invent? not very likely, if you ask me. PS requires a whole new audience that 3dg cannot provide, in my opinion. you cannot change the ppl's hobby (3d) to a new , all different one (writing) just like that, because a new plan asks for it. that just doesn't work.

:nuts:

[ricktu]

Very well said Chris. Couldn't agree more.

I have a soft spot for this place and some of it's people so I would really like it to succeed. However I fear it no longer has the userbase nor the drive to rise from the ashes yet again. The new idea has merit but I don't see any real enthusiasm from anyone outside of Rick in doing the work needed to build such a community as is being suggested.

All thats really happened is a few people had put forward some old stories they had lying around as well as one fan fiction one which had already been decided would be bad for this place. What I don't see is any passion for the idea... without which no site can really survive.

Richard.

[Proximo]

Well, I do have a current concept that I've been working on. In fact several, although most of them are impractical for the kind of budget and userbase we're looking at. :) I'll see about posting them tomorrow or Monday.

In short they're:

A SciFi Miniseries or TV series concept based in a rather large and adaptable universe I've developed,

A Spy story set a short distance in the future, which I was developing for a comic, though I've been retooling it for TV as well, just in case,

A sort of Fantasy/Alternate Universe story involving alternative evolutions and the like. I posted something based on that a while back in WIP.

There are others, but I'd need to find my notes. :)

[moovok]

This might be Proximo's idea, but...

There's tons of sites out there that do fan fiction, but there's no site (though there may be) that does a series, based entirely on nothing that has been before, where they do episodes, etc. Basically, we do it like we're actually writing an series for TV, you have your concept designs, your characters, your real designs, ships (if it's sci-fi, which I think it should be, since most of us are scifi fans), aliens, etc.

So the 3D people have something to do, then us small writers basically get together to plot seasons, storylines, just like a normal TV series would. Basically, to cut it into a sentenace "A TV Series, on the web".

Then, once we've got our scripts / storylines sorted out, our seasons, our characters, the 3D people can either do an entire episode or bits of shots, say for example in the pilot episode, we have a huge battle between these ships, the 3D people can actually design that, and make it into a short movie or something.

Since we're a TV series, we have those after 15 minute pauses, so technically what we can have is the 3D people doing the 15 minute segments each.

PLUS, if the 3D people feel left out, they can also come into the Writer's area, maybe they have an idea for a storyline, and there we are, they're helping us.

That' something I've been thinking about for a while. With Proximo's comments, I think he might have as well, but what do you think, it sounds like a HUGE project, but something we'll all enjoy, something for everyone (writer's and artists). It's like Pheonix' idea, but instead of people writing what they like, we're all banding together to write about this one subject, and the 3D artists aren't drawing someone else's ideas, they're drawing the groups (and their own) ideas.

Therefore nobody feels left out (HOPEFULLY)

[General Phoenix]

I'd be all for that, too - anything that we can actually collaborate on. I actually have a few series ideas as well. I'll detail them in the "Project Ideas" thread.

[ricktu]

Sorry, but I honestly believe you guys have gone down the wrong track again. The idea of a series of individual stories some of whom might catch the imagination of one of the 3d'ers is one that might work. This new idea of trying to collaborate on an entire series just will not. Have you forgotten the last attempt ? And every other one in similair boards around the net. Collaborative projects just do not work. Even cgtalk cant manage it and they have one of the largest and most talented userbases anywhere.

A story here may very well inspire an image or two but to aim yet again for a movie/tv series is to set yourself up to fail from the start.

Plus I've got to say that I think people are approching the writing from the wrong angle. People seemed to be getting excited about creating their own universe and making sure there is a large space battle in it. Good writing is about telling a story, and you build the characters and situations around the story. Not deciding you want some cool ships and battles and trying to write something around that.

To be perfectly honest guys, I soon as I say the mention of the big space battle I was immediately turned off. To me it showed a lack of imagination. If that is going to be the first thing created for this site then the only people to be attracted to the site will be the your trekkie types rather than a literary, artistic minded crowd.

For this place to survive it is time to grow up and expand beyond 20 ships shooting at it other to be a place full of stories that examine life, that capture the imagination, not put it to sleep.

Sorry for being so blunt guys. But I see 3DG moving towards the Abyss and I thought I'd give it one final try at nudging it in a better direction.

Richard.

[moovok]

Rich, I didn't mean space battles per say, I was just giving that as an example. I'm not one for suggesting a pilot episode SHOULD have a space battle, nor even be around space.

I was giving it as an example of 3D works, because battles are what most 3d artists (in my head anyway) do. I know character, and storyline is a HUGE thing, and that's where we all pitch in together. We pitch in for characters, for designs of characters, their past, their future, what storylines, what topics (religious, something that's happening now, like Star Trek would usually do), what directions, who's good, who's bad, who's one that'll shift. I watch 24 and I love it because the character's are so compact, played so well, and you don't always know what you're getting.

Basically, this "series" idea doesn't have to be set in space, nor does it have to be scifi, nor does it have to have ships of any kind. I was only setting an example, which you seem to have misinterpreted as basically the whole idea for it.

If we're going to do a series, we should first think of what we all love. (Doctor Who, Buffy, Angel, 24, Stargate, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc.) and see if we can find something that we can all contribute to. If we can't, then... next new idea. If we can, I think, we can band together, as well as get other people, and build something that's good.

I know it's a bit iffy, and not many people have done it and made it a success, and we probably won't do the same, but... nowadays, I go on the internet, and I visit certain sites, and some of them have their own mini-series. BBC Cult has a Doctor Who one, a Ghosts of Albion. It's not huge, because only people on the internet see it, but those are popular things. Internet TV or Internet Series are slowly cropping up, and maybe we should try, or at least have a brainstorming session, to see if we, 3DG, can come up with something that people may love, and if not "people", us.

[Kai]

thing is, doing a recognised series you hit copyright.
getting ppl together, (if you can get them to deliver), everyone has their own idea of what they should be doing..

btw... ghosts of albion? I did'nt find that on the DW site.. is that a DW?

[General Phoenix]

I've also got ideas for a comedy based on video store clerks competing with the "Blockbuster-esque" corporate giant across the street, as well as a vigilante crime-fighting series. I was trying to show how the 3-D artists could be involved.

One thing I have been thinking of is in relation to the video-store script. Part of the joke will be poking fun at the monopolistic way that "Conglomerate Video" carries itself, much the same way that Blockbuster does. To help show that, I was thinking of creating some commercials for Conglomerate that paint the picture of a company that knows you don't have anywhere else to shop. :)

[Proximo]

Just because people have failed in the past, everyone seems quite happy to say they'll fail again. What about all the collaborative efforst that did work? All the fan-films that appeared for Star Wars and the like didn't happen just out of nowhere, you know. All you'd have to do is apply that to another story, something completely new, and get to work. It's more than possible to work together on things, as long as you keep a positive attitude and make sure you commit. But you need an incentive as well, something that will give you a reward for your work beyond the acclaim. Basically, I'm saying that at some point in the road money has to be involved. :) Now it can be 1 year, 2 or even 5 years away if you like, but there has to be an incentive on the horizon somewhere. ANd there has to be a commonality between the people taking part, beyond merely "oh, this is cool." You'll have to structure it like a production company and, this is the important part, people will have to accept their roles. Obviously it will be hard to get going. The best way to start isn't by producing a full pilot story. It's better to create a small teaser story, say a maxium of 15 minutes long, that gives an idea of the plot, technology, and the general feel of the thing. It also gives people something they can look at, a sort of signpost on the road to the great success. I'm starting to believe it can be done, somewhere. I'd like to see it happen here. :)

[ricktu]

Originally posted by Proximo
Just because people have failed in the past, everyone seems quite happy to say they'll fail again.

And shouldn't that tell you something ? And by the way, no one is happy to say that, we'd all love for this sort of collaboration to work out but most of us have been around long enough to see that it never does.

Originally posted by Proximo
What about all the collaborative efforst that did work? All the fan-films that appeared for Star Wars and the like didn't happen just out of nowhere, you know.

In 5+ years around these parts I'm not aware of one that did work. Outside of a small handfull of Star Wars fan films that is. There have been a few small group projects that have made it to completion but they've been more a loose collection of shots rather than a mini movie. And as for the fan films the 3d component of them have been handled by small dedicated teams of two to three people. Not the same as what you are talking about. Add to that so far it's only really been a few Star Wars films that have been managed. Nothing really outside of this realm. At least none that have reached any sort of wider recognition that is.

Originally posted by Proximo
All you'd have to do is apply that to another story, something completely new, and get to work. It's more than possible to work together on things, as long as you keep a positive attitude and make sure you commit. But you need an incentive as well, something that will give you a reward for your work beyond the acclaim.

In each attempt that I've seen , each has started with just these ideals. The point is that it has so far never been sustainable.


Originally posted by Proximo
Basically, I'm saying that at some point in the road money has to be involved. :) Now it can be 1 year, 2 or even 5 years away if you like, but there has to be an incentive on the horizon somewhere. ANd there has to be a commonality between the people taking part, beyond merely "oh, this is cool." You'll have to structure it like a production company and, this is the important part, people will have to accept their roles. Obviously it will be hard to get going.

Again this is nothing new. I've lost track of the pitches I've read using the possibility of money down the track as an incentive.


Originally posted by Proximo
The best way to start isn't by producing a full pilot story. It's better to create a small teaser story, say a maxium of 15 minutes long, that gives an idea of the plot, technology, and the general feel of the thing. It also gives people something they can look at, a sort of signpost on the road to the great success.

Be it 15 mins or two hours you still need to create the settings and characters. Go read through the archives at cgtalk. This sort of thing has been discussed to death there with the same result. People rarely realise just how much work this is in producing something like this. Not to mention that once the less experienced of your crew realise how much of the actual work is repetative they drop out in droves. As an example creating one laserblast is fun.... by the time you've done you're 20th it's boring as hell. Which is exactly why people only put up with doing it when it's bringing in a steady income thats paying the mortgage.

Originally posted by Proximo
I'm starting to believe it can be done, somewhere. I'd like to see it happen here. :)

I know it sounds like I'm being incredibly negative but I'm just being realistic. Theres a great quote that you need to be mindfull of here .. "people who are not mindfull of history are doomed to repeat it.." You enthusiasm is great but remember that each attempt in the past had just that going for it in the beginning.

I guess what I'm trying to get accross to you is that by no means should this be attempted as part of your opening gambit. For a start you dont have enough people on board to even attempt it to begin with. It should only be a series of smaller projects until some form of critical mass is reached.

Once there are hundreds of new members all posting good stories and great associated artwork then you can attempt this yet again. And if you succed good on you, and if not it will have no lasting harm on the site itself. Remember thses sort of projects take a long time to complete and if this is the sites only main drawcard then it will only interest a handfull intertested in the story itself. Starting it with smaller projects will give people more of a variety of interests to catch their eyes and encourage them to stay.

In other simpler words learn to walk before you try flying. You will achieve far more in the long run.

Richard.

[Proximo]

Well, it seems that you're only looking backwards. Of course you need to be mindful of the past, but as a means of learning how to work differently in the future. It's not good enough loking back and saying people have failed, ergo I must also fail - that means you will fail. It doesn't matter what happened to all these other people. I don't give a damn if they failed. It's worth trying again because, one day, someone will succeed at it and make a damn fortune. That won't happen of people don't keep trying, will it...

The thing is, nobody said anthing about starting out with a movie. You seem to have missed the point of what's been said over and over; they, we, want to start small. Start simple. Start with something that won't tax people too hard. And again, regarding that laserblast crack it doesn't have to be frikken science fiction. ;) It could be a 5 minute short about two piles of slime and a toaster. As long as there are collaborations going on, it doesn't matter what it is. GP has stated that he wants to see people working together on the site and I agree with that goal. It creates relationships that can be very beneficial down the line, and it gives people industry contacts with an added bonus; they know how they'll be able to work with the people they're in contact with.

[Chris B]

Graham, when you say we want to start something, who exactly is this group? so far it's been rick, mike and perhaps you (if there's money is in it, i understand). if that is the we, it's not a good point to start from, albeit the individuals being highly respected ppl.
i'm not in it, because i lack the time and interest, as i've pointed out before. ricktu is not in it, i believe. sessy (read sexy) lizzy is not in it, i believe (she will gladly speak for herself and correct me, if neccessary.)
who is "we" - if that is sorted out this group should have a good chat on what they want to do, careless of what rick and i've pointed out so far.

[moovok]

Well, if we go in the direction of a series, I think Prox is right, have a brief story, maybe a short story, which can build into a series, like with most films, such as Paycheck (I know it's Scifi, but it's the only one that comes to mind atm). Paycheck was based on a short story.

Have a few people go in for it, and see what ideas you get in it.

Plus, someone said you need a lot of people. Actually, having less people can make you get into one direction much quicker than having thousands of people screaming at you. Maybe that's why cgtalk did so badly, because having more people usually makes it harder to agree on one objective or one basis, therefore it wouldn't work.

I agree with Prox, that we need to have specific roles. Writers, different drawing departments for storyboards, design, characters, etc. Producers and Directors (if they ever get to actually shooting them).

Money comes into it, but not entirely so. Many films, okay they're not the best, but most films come from cheaper budgets, or no budgets at all. If we're going for it, we could always get an basis, an idea, and see who'll sponcer us (sorry, watched Dawson's Creek. He had no money, but he got his film done. I know it's NOT real, but...)

Kai, it's on the BBC Cult website the Ghosts of Albion, it's flash animation and looks rather cool. Though it's one of those things you have to keep watching, because it's not, imo, gripping at the beginning.

Yes, I agree most people aren't going to have time, but you have time to write and time to read, so you could be able to read through plot ideas, and add your comments. Read though character descriptions / developments and again comment. Okay, it's not a HUGE major job, but as you say Chris, you won't have the time.

Ricktu: I do see your point. People have tried and failed, and there's no guarentee that this will succeed, nor is there any guarentee that it'll fall flat on its face. It most likely will, but with people enthusiastic about it (okay, yes as Chris has pointed out, only 3 people), you get something.

I want to open my own DVD shop. I have enthusiasm about it, and most people don't, they're shops fail, because they don't put in their ideas to it, they just let it fall apart around them. We, hopefully, won't.

I do agree with Chris, 3 isn't enough people. Okay, we have enthusiasm, but we need to see what other people think, not just Me, Rick and Prox. It's just making people change their minds, or making them change ours.

[Sess]

I also lack time and interest really. Besides it's not even clear to me what you guys want to do really.
I think maybe more people feel that way? I mean you Chris and all, you've seen projects go about earlyer, because of all your 3d stuff, I haven't actually...

anyways, I've actually decided to drastically cut on my internet time - school :puke: - so I don't have time anyways

in theory - I'm not entirely unwilling to do things, but it has to cost little time, especially reading time since that's THE thing that makes me tired.
drop your character ideas, I'd drop suggestions, sketches others can perhaps be inspired by, but.. well my input would be very limited.

don't count on it for your project anyway

[Sess]

Originally posted by moovok
Many films, okay they're not the best, but most films come from cheaper budgets, or no budgets at all.

How much of a budget did Blair Witch have anwyay?

But, most of those low budget productions, never make it past the select few theatres that classify themselves as "cultural"

[General Phoenix]

The idea here is, as Graham pointed out, to start with VERY small projects - something just a few minutes long. Each of these projects would only have a few people involved, just enough people to do what needs to be done. (For example, two writers, one or two people to do concept sketches, and a couple of modellers.)

As each phase of the project is completed, different people might be needed - for instance, if the writing is done, the writers could then move on to another project, coming back to this one only when needed. If we decided to change from a 3-D animated short to a cell-animated short, we'd need to get different artists. And when it came time to do audio editing, we'd need someone for that. But from start to finish, the most that these small projects would involve would be maybe 7 or 8 members.

I am in no way suggesting that the entire active membership should all try to work on a single project together - that would be insane. Small groups working on manageable projects is what I'm talking about here (I believe I said that a few times already.) If, when a few small projects are done, we have some people who have proven their dedication and creativity, a larger project might be possible, but that's a long-term idea.

Keep 'em short and keep 'em simple. Think of a Monty Pyhton sketch, but animated. That sort of thing is entirely within the realm of possibility - look at Mams "Christmas Menu" short film. There's a link on the main news page. It's only a couple minutes long, it only has three characters, and it's also very entertaining. That's the sort of thing we can do here, if people are passionate about doing it.

One other thing that I think is happening here is that everyone thinks that these projects are going to be the ONLY THING going on here, which just isn't true. We will still have our Art, Writing, and Discussion forums, for things that aren't related to a specific project. Just because a project is going on doesn't mean that the rest of the site disappears, and it doesn't mean that another project can't be worked on as well.

I guess what I'm really saying is this: Those of you who want to work together on a scecific project, OF ANY KIND, are encouraged to do so, with all the advice and support I can give. Those of you who do not want to work on a project are still welcome to join in the discussions and sharing of artwork that have always gone on here. If a group of you want to create a song together, with one person laying down a beat, and each person adding a particular instrument, I'm all for it - we'll cut an album if you want! :D

All I want is for people to find an idea that excites them and tell us about it - there just may be a few people who like it too, and want to help. That's all there is to it. And if anyone here has a suggestion on something additional we could do for the site or the forums, I'm listening.

However, I'm done listening to how a project can fail - I want to hear ideas about how to make a project succeed.